[Discussion] xxxHolic ch 185 & TRC ch 226

[nokiirat.livejournal.com]

Cut for this week's spoilers...How about some longbottom leaf?
So Watanuki has turned into a Yuuko and FWR has rage issues, so does this mean FWR x Watanuki? Any thoughts? There definitely should have been more baby Syaoran time. As a totally random side note, remember when Yukito was canned mackerel?

Smokerholic is on a two-week break, but at least we have Tsubasa next week.

Comments

[outou.livejournal.com]

Considering the reasons behind X's cancellation, xxxHOLiC might end up being cancelled out of concerns that it may cause kids to smoke.

[nokiirat.livejournal.com]

hehe, considering xxxHolic runs in Young Magazine...a magazine with bikini girls all over it, I don't think 'kids' are the target Japanese audience. We'll see if the USA censors do something to that scene though. HA.

[dumdumdumbutt.livejournal.com]

watanuki you are a dumb ;_;



whats this about mackerel? man I hate fish

[nokiirat.livejournal.com]

it was just a cardcaptor sakura episode which was just randomly funny. :)

[jjblue1.livejournal.com]

There's something I lost though... in the past number of holic we saw that Doumeki saw Shaoran giving Watanuki his glasses.
We assumed it had happened in that moment because Watanuki was without glasses and then, when Doumeki reached him he was wearing them again.
However, unless my memory fail me... we didn't see this happen in TRC. So is this something that has to appen in TRC's future? And will it have a meaning?
Also... it's quite a long while I haven't seen Watanuki wearing them so the fact they were returned in holic but not yet in TRC looks odd to me.

Maybe FWR is Doumeki instead. Someone had told me there was a bat symbol among the thing Doumeki or his grandfather possessed (Damn, I can't remember where) and he looks more symilar to Fei Wang. Maybe his family is also reated to Clow (his grandfather had him to dress like a girl... was it really due to health or was it due to something more) and he's trying to get Yuko back to life to help Watanuki...
And maybe I shouldn't reply to post so late in the night because my mind isn't connecting well...

And in all this... where are teh vampire twins and the hunters? Fuma still had a wish we know nothing about and I wanna know the story of why the vampire are escaping, how Seishiro had messed up this time and if they ever get a 'nobody die' ending!

[nokiirat.livejournal.com]

yes! is the vampire story going to just slide out the back and never get done?

[starlady38.livejournal.com]

Can't help wondering what's going to happen to Himawari. Or on whom, exactly, Doumeki now thinks he should use the egg.

Other than that, what are the odds that FWR offs himself in despair? Or just gives up the fight?

[witchrae.livejournal.com]

I'll be even more surprised if in the next chapter Watanuki became a drunker too. D8

haha, I remember that episode.
It was so funny. XD

[nokiirat.livejournal.com]

a drunk Watanuki...mmm, should be funny.

[monochrome-koi.livejournal.com]

The whole FWR = Doumeki is interesting~

Maybe it's true, except unlike FWR who is failing and becoming all drama queen...Doumeki would do the right thing?

[pinkabbestia.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm very happy that I see Kurogane and fay after long time... But I think flashback about FWR's past is coming too soon...
uhm... what kind of relationship is there between Yuuko and FWR?

[shaoron88.livejournal.com]

Summing up my thoughts:

I think that:

- Yuuko = FWR's mother

- FWR = Clow's son

- Watanuki = Clow (Watanuki is a previous life of Clow, but lives in a future time with respect to Clow)

I know that Watanuki = Real Shaoran, anyone who reads the manga knows that. what I say is that since they were separated in two, evolve in different ways. So I think that Watanuki is Clow.

Also, anyone who reads the manga knows that FWR is direct DESCENDANT of Clow and Doumeki isn't descendant of Clow.

And finally, FWR isn't bad, is just confusing.

[herm-nefer.livejournal.com]

If Watanuki is Clow and YuukoxClow= FWR you just killed my fandom...and Watanuki is a very confused boy...because his only maternal image after a while was Yuuko....*headdesk*

My hope lingers on Yuuko having seen this coming and leaving the egg to Doumeki who was the remaining voice of reason to use it to straighten the madness out

[umamandy.livejournal.com]

I was speculating that FWR might be Watanuki... but I'm so confused XD

[horcrux85.livejournal.com]

The FWR = Doumeki theory is interesting, I thought it might be true because of FWR's eyeglass on the eye Doumeki shares with Watanuki and because Doumeki is the only one in xxxHolic that actualy call Yuuko "Witch" just like FWR. But that is not enough to make affirmations.
If FWR really is Doumeki then he is trying to resurect Yuuko to free Watanuki from his wish, witch is a quite beautiful intention. ^^

But on the other way FWR seems to know too well Clow to be Doumeki.

Well anyway I'm sure/I hope we'll soon have the answer!

^^

[clow-shirow.livejournal.com]

OMG Doumeki = FWR is even more on drugs than Watanuki = FWR
However, that would be very CLAMPish *_*
But... how is that expressivity in FWR when Doumeki is lack of it at all? XD

If Watanuki is Clow, then another Clow existance must be of the shop is in a time loop as well, from Yuuko's to Clow's inheritance until the end of time.

[kaleido-steph.livejournal.com]

I'm getting tired of a the theories, i mean, c'mon CLAMP, just tell us what the heck, because your getting on our nerves!... Well at least on mine... @.@, the only theory that I have is the one of the two Syaoran's giving Watanuki the glasses is a certain future of TRC[Different world, different time]

I also think herm_nefer has a point on the part of Doumeki being the remaining voice of reason, after all this is getting pretty weird, T.T,

Watanuki smoking!! Gosh Yuuko you were a bad influence for this kid! xD, so next what? is he going to start drinking Sake, and let his hair grow like Clow's? Waaaaaa sooooo many questions!!! T.T

By the other hand, TRC was quite cute, except for FWR going all crazy at the end xP

[outou.livejournal.com]

He said that his "moments" have stopped, so he might not even be able to grow his hair out. Fortunately, this would mean that the tobacco/opium/miscellaneous drugs won't have a negative effect on him.

...that doesn't mean he should smoke and drink with reckless abandon, though. :/

[(Anonymous)]

LOL, Watanuki smoking. I'm not entirely sure what he's smokings legal either (considering that it's a pipe for smoking opium). I'm also sort of worried about the fact that he's walking around in Yuuko's kimono. Does this mean that as well as an becoming an opium addict he's also going to become a transvestite? Is he just going walk around in Yuuko's clothing now?

It's sweet and sort of sad that Watanuki's chosen to confine himself to the shop and wait for Yuuko. Maybe this means he was in love with Yuuko, and she's gonna be recarnated and turn up at the shop again as a teenager, and then they can together (and the 16 year age gap wont matter as far as CLAMP are concerned because he will still look about 18). Or it could be completely different. Even so I still wrecken she will be recarnated (either with or without her original memories).

I think the theory about Doumeki being future FWR is interesting. I'm not sure how likely it is, but it's certainly possible. I hate the idea of Doumeki becoming all twisted and evil though.

As for Tsubasa, i'm ecstatic that we finally got to see Kurogane and Fai again! We've been deprived of them for over a month!! I'm glad all that explainings over with and we can finally get on with the story. I'm really hoping that at somepoint soon were gonna have flashbacks explaining whats the deal with Yuuko and Clow, Yuuko's death ect. I'd really like to see Yuuko's childhood but I think that's too much to ask. I'd love to see what Yuuko looked like as a little kid.

Also, i've just had a thought about the theory about FWR being Yuuko+Clow's son. If that is the case, maybe Yuuko died giving birth to him. It would explain why she appears to have died when she was young, and it could also explain why FWR pursues reserecting her so fanaticly; she's his mother, and in a sense he (although it's not his fault) was the cause of his mothers death, and thus he feels guilty. I'm very interested at the moment in how he and Clow are linked to Yuuko.

[tomoyohime8.livejournal.com]

that would destroy my fandom. D: completely.

[truthseeker48.livejournal.com]

...he knows that Yuuko's dead but he didn't know that the clones were the parents? Suspended disbelief has just imploded.

Now is this waiting going to be like CCS!Sakura waits? Like Kohaku waits? Like Yasha waits? Like Utako waits? Or like TRC!SS Parents wait? I wonder if it's a hint at the romantic if Watanuki decides to wait. Has there been any non-romantic waits in CLAMP? I can't think right now....

[outou.livejournal.com]

I can't think of any waiting that wasn't connected to a romantic relationship, but this is also the first time that we've had a main character form such a strong bond with a mentor/parental figure. CLAMP normally focuses on romantic love instead of platonic love, after all, which would make Watanuki's relationship with Yuuko a refreshing change.

[daikon-kamen.livejournal.com]

Kurogane, just kill them all.
Please.

[nokiirat.livejournal.com]

haha, if only it were that kind of manga.

[clampholickyou.livejournal.com]

Doumeki = FWR??? Can't imagine, but that's totally possible as it IS a Clamp's manga,,,,o__0 so are we waiting for the transformation of the main characters of xxxholic now? Watanuki>>Yuuko and Doumeki>>FWR

One of the reason to attack this theory is that Doumeki won't like this kind of hairstyle XDXD

[nokiirat.livejournal.com]

plus, i don't think he can grow that kind of chin without plastic surgery. hehe.

[lethalsilicong5.livejournal.com]

ARGH! I can't stand waiting any longer I want to know how this fights ends!!

[koharu]

Stepping away from the theory and plot for a second, did anyone else think this chapter of TRC was really good with showing Kurogane and Fay's character development? In his gruff way, Kuro expressed outright that Daddy cares about his kids (all five of them rofl).

Meanwhile, Fay, in a rare reversal of roles, stayed quiet, but his expressions were just so, well, expressive! I'm sure he could never have dreamed of showing this much emotion openly before the series started. It's like the opposite of what happened in 203, now I think about it (Fay talking and Kuro silently agreeing).

[outou.livejournal.com]

You're absolutely right. (Fay had a particularly tender and loving expression on his face near the end of the chapter.)

[outou.livejournal.com]

I'm posting this here, since I don't want this to get lost in the collapsed threads (as it's fairly long, and I haven't written this much about my own feelings on the subject before). About the whole "Clow = Watanuki" idea:

shaoron88 wrote: I know that Watanuki = Real Shaoran, anyone who reads the manga knows that. what I say is that since they were separated in two, evolve in different ways. So I think that Watanuki is Clow.

Yes, that's true, but you're missing the full import of that.

The whole of xxxHOLiC has focused on Watanuki's change--on his becoming a separate person, capable of existing on his own. Meaning, he has been led away from becoming another Syaoran.

The problem with him becoming another Clow (even if that Clow is a predecessor to the one we know) is that it invalidates all of Watanuki's development. He's supposed to become Watanuki--not Syaoran, not Clow, not anyone else other than himself.

The way CLAMP handles reincarnation (excluding Clow's splitting himself in half, which necessitated the creation of two different people) and alternate selves is that each version can be considered basically the same as the other. Sakura will always be Sakura, no matter what her origins are; Syaoran will always be Syaoran, no matter what his origins are; Clow will always be Clow, and Watanuki will always be Watanuki. He can't be Watanuki and Clow at the same time--he would have to give up that part of himself that makes him Watanuki. Do you understand?

Likewise, it dilutes Clow's otherworldly character by rooting him to another, more easily understood life. (More pedantically, how could Watanuki be incapable of using magic at all in one life and then become the most powerful magician in the multiverse in another, while remaining essentially the same person? The only other example I can think of is Tomoyo: in the world of CCS, she had no magical powers to speak of, but in Nihon she could foresee the future and cast several spells. However, that's nowhere near the jump in power that would happen between Watanuki and Clow.)

Finally--and I think this is the most important objection--the whole idea harms Watanuki's image. Clow has an aura of fatality around him associated with his always being removed from the storyline--to be blunt, he's always dead. Watanuki, along with Syaoran, Sakura, and the other "children," has a lot of promise and hope in his character; he's been connected to positive change and a willingness to take initiative and move on. Yuuko and Clow chose to entrust the future to the children for good reason.

His choosing to wait until the day he meets Yuuko again (either in the real world or the afterlife) does contradict this, but it would be far better to think that this is a challenge for him to overcome. For CLAMP to end the series on the note that Watanuki will end up at the same dead end as Clow and Yuuko would render the whole story pointless (not to mention smugly depressing).

[lectawindwalker.livejournal.com]

You = Awesome

I don't think I ever could have put my thoughts down like this.

I do have one thing to add to what you said though:

In CCS, Eriol states that Clow split his soul into 2 (Fujitaka and Eriol). If Watanuki was a reincarnation, that would contradict what CLAMP has previously stated. And it would also make R!Syaoran a reincarnation, and C!Syaoran a copy of that reincarnation. CLAMP may love to mess with our heads, but I doubt they'd go to this extent. XD

[snoopygirl11.livejournal.com]

I'm happy that Watanuki has taken over the shop but I do think it's bad that he can't leave the shop, despite that being his "price". It is a bit worrying that he's started walking around in Yuuko's kimono and smoking whatever the heck Yuuko used to (lol illegal substance!). Though I did find the last page of Watanuki smoking really kool ^^"

I loved the moment between both Syaorans. It's kinda weird seeing them together, knowing that one is the other's father. I also loved the Kuro-tan Daddy speech <3 (Just realised that is RSakura even wakes up, she won't know who the heck any of these people are or why there's a double of her and Syaoran XD)

Looks like FWR is mad and about to go into Flashback Mode XD So that will cover....8 chapters? lol! I hope FWR isn't Watanuki OR Doumeki. The Doumeki theory is very odd in my opinion. If it's true, then I guess Doumeki started using expressions more after many many years (as FWR isn't exactly young).

[horcrux85.livejournal.com]

I allways thought that Yuuko smoking that old fashioned pipe was kinda cool, add that to her magnificent wardrobe and you have the most charismatic character I've ever seen in a manga! ^^
So now Watanuki started to smoke and dress like her, his coolness will start to increase dramatically!! XD

I assume now he is the owner of the shop he will have to use the objects in transit in the storage room. Afterall Yuuko said those objects where like in a waiting room, waiting to cross the path of there future owners. And he will also have to grant Fuma's wish... Or not, we'll see! ^^

[ragingfirefall.livejournal.com]

After reading these chapters, I'm leaning, against my will, towards the FWR = Doumeki theory...I don't want it and I think there are still ways it doesn't work, but plotwise it would, I think, make a lot of sense. It seems significant to me that the two chapters, timed to correspond, respectively show FWR wailing that he needs to bring Yuuko back, and Watanuki informing Doumeki that he can't leave the shop until Yuuko returns. Doumeki doesn't seem happy with Watanuki's decision to become an unaging witch-boy who can't leave the shop, so it makes sense that his need for Watanuki to meet Yuuko and thus move on would serve as motivation to bring Yuuko back...which explains FWR's fanaticism.

But I still hope it's not the case. Doumeki is too awesome to become FWR. My brain hurts at the thought.

I disagree with the idea that Watanuki is Clow, though. For the reasons outou and others mentioned above, but also because *Yuuko knew Clow*. If Watanuki is Clow, then his grownup self being all friendly with Yuuko means he meets her again, and the point of these chapters seems to be that Watanuki still hasn't been able to see her, and can't move on until he does. If that makes sense.

I suppose another time paradox could explain that away, but somehow it seems too jarring to me.

This is getting longwinded, which I think reflects my general confusion over what's really going on. x_X Where is Himawari, and did Watanuki not think of her at all when he made his decision? What's Himawari's significance in all this? Is she supposed to be Yuuko reincarnated, or what? When are we getting an explanation for the glasses scene, and is that supposed to represent Watanuki regaining his old eyes and thus separating from Doumeki? Is Kohane going to prove important in all this? My brain's hurting again.

[redfrog2b.livejournal.com]

WTF

Thinking about all these theories and speculation going around with these two recent chapters makes my head hurt. But I have to agree whole heartedly with what outou wrote about Watanuki. SiInce I can't put my feelings on this matter into words any better then her, I will leave it at that. Frankly speaking, if Clamp made Watanuki into Clow I would be extremely disappointed in them. It would feel like a cop out.

In that vain of thought, what I really wanted to write is that I personally feel that the theory of Doumeki becoming FWR is crazy and over thought, but I suppose logical if you believe that Watanuki = Clow, which I don't. For this to even be feasible Doumeki would 1) have to develop magical trans-dimensional powers, 2) become a ruthlessly heartless murderer and 3) grow up very ugly. Yuuko and Kohane both wished for him to stay by Watanuki's side. Would Yuuko really have trusted him that way if he was later going to cause all of these problems as FWR? Why can't we just let these characters be who they are? I think one example of the grandfather paradox is enough. Yes, Clamp likes to play mind games, and yes, time travel and what not is a paranoid paradox of confusion, but I see no point in reading so far into it as to say that Doumeki and Watanuki are somehow going become different people. That would create a never ending loop much like what Syaoran and Sakura are in right now. Never moving forward, always repeating the same painful mess. What kind of conclusion is that? It contradicts every change that every character made in these two series to live move forward.

No, I don't believe that is what Clamp has in mind. And if it is, I will be extremely disappointed.

All I really care about is finding out what that stupid egg is for. Clamp has foreshadowed that thing for forever, JUST TELL US WHAT IT DOES ALREADY! T-T

I would also like to note that if FWR is Yuuko and Clow's child then that would mean that Clow + Yuuko = ugly.

[kishiu.livejournal.com]

Reincarnations:

Yuuko=Himawari

Watanuki=Clow

Doumeki=FWR

This is way too crazy. I'm totally clueless but If Doumeki is FWR I don't know.. there a lot of things that are missing, the magic is the problem cause it's the same with how the hell did Syaoran got that Li sword if all the people that read CCS knows that bloody sword belonged to CCS!Syaoran... unless there is a sword per dimension?? xD!